The Netpeak Story - How to Run an Agency in Ukraine During a War

leadership mindset podcast strategy and planning Aug 15, 2023

An extraordinary interview. An extraordinary situation. Humbling and yet inspiring. Listen as Vladyslav Braganets, CEO of Netpeak Alliance, tells the story of Netpeak and how they continue to run an agency in Ukraine during a war.

Robert and Vlad discuss:

  • What happened in the first weeks?
  • Who is working there now?
  • Delivering awesome work that delivers awesome value
  • People shouldn’t buy from Ukraine because they feel sorry for them, but on they should buy on the business merits
  • People as your #1 asset
  • Don’t wait - be proactive with staff, clients, suppliers. Take ownership and control of your situation
  • In this story, is it the Netpeak culture that is so special or is it Ukrainian or both?
  • How to deal with the trauma within the company?
  • So, focus on your people
  • How can we (outside Ukraine) help?





Robert Craven  00:07

Hello and welcome to GYDA talks. And today, it is an absolute pleasure and honour to be talking to Vlad from Netpeak. So rather than me interrupt his story, which is fascinating for all of us, I'm gonna go straight over to Vlad. Hello, Vlad, how are you?


Vladyslav Braganets  00:29

Hello, Robert. Thank you. Thank you, I'm fine. I do really appreciate being here and having an opportunity to communicate with you to give you some overview about Netpeak and our current situation. And it's a pleasure to be a part of GYDA talks.


Robert Craven  00:49

Fantastic. So a lot of people have heard about Netpeak. So give us a bit of background and a bit of detail to the Netpeak story.


Vladyslav Braganets  01:11

Yeah, a big story started. Nearly 17 years ago, in one week, we will be celebrating our 17th birthday. It was started by our founder John Barda to work as a small digital agency mostly with a focus on SEO services. And during these 17 years Netpeak became a group of companies. Right now in a Netpeak group. It's approximately 20 different companies which are connected with the digital marketing services, digital marketing products. Also some learning platforms, educational platforms, specific tools like analogues of SEMrush, analogues of Screaming Frog, such as Netpeak expired on Epic choker. And me, myself, I'm a CEO, one of the business units, which is called Netpeak Alliance, which we started several years ago is a Partnership Programme inside instant Europe, especially in Ukraine. But right now, it's a small digital agency inside Netpeak as the bigger agency, which is, which has a focus on working with the European, the United States market, and especially with the agency's digital marketing agencies all over the Europe, in the Netpeak group, we've got more than 1000 of employees in Netpeak as an agency, we have three and a half 100 of guys. And even in such tough times in the state of war, when Ukraine is in a state of war with Russia, we kept our main value we kept nearly 90-95% of our team on board, even when the war started, and this year, I am really happy that in the beginning of April, and during May, we started hiring new guys. So we see a possibility to enlarge our business. And we see a possibility even in such dark times for Ukraine, to enlarge our business. And to keep on moving. We are still hiring guys from Ukraine, 90, maybe not 90, maybe 85% of our employees are still in Ukraine. And we keep on moving. We keep on working. And I think our experience in this case can be helpful to your community and to all the agencies that are going to listen to us.


Robert Craven  03:51

Okay, so everyone listening is humbled by everything you've said so far, especially the working within Warren I've worked with, with Google in with Ukrainian agencies. I worked in Kyiv. Before, before, before COVID. So I'm kind of a little bit familiar with the people and the style. But I mean, question number one is who is working? Who is working for you? Because I mean, who has to go to war? Who has to join the army? Who had I mean, how does that work? How does that happen?


Vladyslav Braganets  04:36

In our case, right now, just from the agency, approximately 20 employees have joined the military forces. Also, we created a social platform, which was, What my CD was called so it was founded several years ago and it was a short social blog forum for firstly, for Odessa City is the city where the headquarters of it is bigger. And there we were given an opportunity to any person who would like to publish their social project and get some donations from the businesses from other people to release this project. When the war started, this project was like optimised and all the donations, all the projects was to get as much help as possible to give it to the military services to the military troops. Me, myself, I've published several projects to help the Ukrainian army, like to get some vehicles to buy some medical tools for the specific troops. And it's really working. Right now, as I said, 20 guys, less than 10%, who joined the army, have the same percentage of male and female in the agency. So it's 50/50. And, of course, you know that girls do not need to join the military forces. Not all the specialists, not all the male employees need to join the military forces, because we've got like grades in Ukraine. First of all, all the guys who have these military experiences, and who have some specific military professions, they are joining, we do not like, reject the willingness of our employees to join the military forces. So one of the vice presidents of business development from Serpstat, he joined the military forces on the first days, also the head of marketing of our campaign, one of the companies inside Netpeak group, he also is a volunteer and joined the military forces. Of course, it's a great bring, not a problem. I really regret that we have some guys who died in this war, and it's really a great sorrow for us, a problem for us, and we help their families, we try to communicate and to help different social programmes. And during all this time, Netpeak donated several millions of grivnas, it's several 100,000 euros, to the military services to the social project. So our main aim is to help our army to win this war and to get back to normal life and to enlarge our business to share our experience. And we are doing our best in this case.


Robert Craven  08:14

So when the war started, I was involved in a programme with Ukrainian agencies. And the problem then was, there is in the Ukrainian market for digital agencies as dried up, no one can know. And everyone's just focused on the war. Industries closing down as and so the question what the time was, how could we assist Ukrainian digital agencies? So what did your customer base change the way you weren't changed? What changed what happened?


Vladyslav Braganets  08:56

Yeah, so when the war started, it was 24th of February last year, we woke up and understood that we lost 70% of our net revenue, because 70% of our audience, our clients were from Ukraine, or it was international business that was operating their marketing activities in Ukraine and in Eastern Europe. So our first things and I'm really proud of our Netpeak team because they weren't waiting for clients' messages, stop advertising campaigns. They understood the word started as there is no place for marketing. There is no place for advertisement activities. There is no place for Google ads, Facebook and etcetera SEO. They stopped everything. We didn't get any commission from that. And we help to keep this money to our clients. First month, I can say that mostly lots of agencies decided to do their profitability or their margin, and it's what was really a big problem and it was wrong weight. According to my point of view, they decided they started firing employees, they started to find some way how they can show their expenditures. During the 16 years of experience of developer Netpeak, I can say that the biggest value of each agency is your team. It's not your money in your not your net revenue streams. It's your team, the people who are bringing in this net revenue, who are developing your agency who are bringing these ideas and improving the business of your clients. So our main aim was to keep our team on board. And I can say that the main goal that we set up for last year, we achieved as I said, we kept 90-95% of all our staff inside the Netpeak group, even in the case that okay, we do not need human resources. We do not need recruiters, you can't recruit new guys, when you've got a war, when you need to move guys to safer places, okay, but we need to rebuild our business. So we moved guys from the recruitment department, to other departments. Okay, you're going to start the lead gen process, you're going to be a lead gen, we will pay you the salary, we will pay you some bonuses, we will invent some bonus system for you. But you will be inside this team in the case of netpeak. Alliance that I am running right now. Before the war, it was a Partnership Programme, we were sharing leads, sharing information, making some projects with the other companies like web dev mobile dev companies were making for them, for their clients, some are marketing activities and so on. But when the war started, we understood that we needed to change everything. And that big alliance with a little white label agency started like that. I've communicated with several agencies from Eastern Europe from the UK. Okay, guys, do you have an opportunity? Do you need some additional resources, and they said, of course, we need the market to grow, it's extremely hard to hire someone, it's extremely hard to find that appropriate talent. And in that peak, we've got more than 300 talented marketing specialists, and the costs in Ukraine and the cost per specialist in the UK and in the US is two or three times higher, that is the case when it's a win strategy. And okay, we are going to launch this business and we need some business development representatives, we need sales managers, we need marketing managers. And okay, we took these guys from the other processes and taught them how to do this or that, how to communicate with the agencies, how to bring additional value, how to work with the other markets, and we kept them on board. And I think it helped us this year, to reach this break even point and start hiring new specialists. So I think this is one piece of advice that I can give to any agency. Not just in Ukraine, where wherever you're situated, if you've got a crisis, first of all, first of all, think about the most valuable thing you've got the most well, you will have your company and your people. So keep them on board, and then move on.


Robert Craven  13:47

So I know that certainly at the same time, everyone here was saying, How can we help? How can we help? How can we help? And a lot of UK agencies, you know, deliberately went to Ukraine to support you. Do you think that that continued or do you think there were the people that came a bit not not tired of the Ukraine story, but it didn't it hadn't maintained? It was such a shock? It's almost become normalised now, are you still able to get traction in the UK in the US? Is that what you're finding?


Vladyslav Braganets  14:29

It's a really good question, thank you. And I think that we, all of us, are doing business. And in the first month, of course, it was willingness to help in whatever way okay, we are going to deliver us some projects. We are going to hire some guys from Ukraine, but all of us are thinking about our net revenue streams and about our margin. We can't just build In this from the UK agencies from the UK just can't outsource everything. And in this case, and of course, the end of the last year showed us that there is some unpredictable situation in the economy of Europe. Because as I have spoken with a lot of agencies, especially the big one with more than one and a half 100 employees to hundreds of employees, they said, Okay, we didn't receive steel approval of our next year budget from our biggest clients. And I understand that it's unpredictable. And all of us need to think about our profitability. And the main thing is not just speculate on the topic of Ukraine, it's advice to Ukrainian agencies right now. Do not try to find your clients, your partner's just saying, Oh, it's a really hot moment in Ukraine. I need some new contracts and et cetera. No, you need to bring additional value. And in that big, how do we deal with it? We are going to discuss what are the problems we're facing with the other agencies, what kind of specialists they need, and we are given our own advice. One of the advisors can say that, we understood one day that we've got the most focus on SEO and paid traffic services. But our clients would like to receive some more services like email marketing, as mobile app promotion goes, the world goes mobile, they need some marketing, consultancy, and so on, and so on. And to build such a department. In this case, the number or the cross sales in that big is more than 30%. So we are selling, we'll get 30% of net new net revenue from our current customers, given them new services. And I understand when you've got a great challenge, hiring new specialists and finding appropriate talent, especially in the UK or US market, you need to re-engage to build new departments, and it's extremely challenging. In this case, okay, guys, you do not need to build everything, you can use our sources, and these can bring you a new net revenue stream, and you are losing nothing. We can go with you on some appointments, on some meetings, prepare the pre-sales for you, and so on. So we're giving them additional value, how they can earn more money. And we are not speculating on the topic of Ukraine. It's not working like that. The brand of Ukraine is not a weakness, the brand of Ukraine is being brave. And being developed even in such tough times in such dark times. And in this case, we're trying to bring this well, you were sharing our knowledge, okay, we've built an agency with three and a half hundreds of employees. We are one of the biggest agencies in Eastern Europe, our founder made 20 plus companies, guys, we're ready to share it. And this helps us to get new partners to show that we are a reliable partner. And as advice to Ukrainian agencies, and as advice to Eastern European agencies. Guys, don't speculate on the topic that you are from, what country you are from, you've got like low rates, or sometimes show the value, show where your partner can earn extra margin. And these will make sense because all of us are doing business. We're not just asking for something like a donation.


Robert Craven  18:57

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone has. What you've done is you have kind of redefined the relationship, the relationship, the natural, or natural way of the Western are in a way to go, we are the rich West, let us help you. It's almost like a donor, a donor and a charity thing. And I think the way that you've, you've chosen not to not to play that game makes sense, but to actually say, you, you buy from us because we deliver awesome value for money. We are a natural choice. Yeah, there's difficulties and and know that every conversation you start with starts off with people not knowing quite how to talk to you and, and so on, because because of the lack of, I guess, understanding and empathy, you know, so, but at the same time, that the fact that you're, you're running an agency I mean, how does there been a lot of interruption to, to business internally have have the internet stayed stable and have people on the whole been able to, you know, deliver the work they're meant to deliver? Or has there been a lot of interruption?


Vladyslav Braganets  20:17

It was really challenging for us in the meat of autumn last year, and especially in November and December because it was lots of missile attacks in Ukraine on our electricity system. But also, it's like an advice for Erawan, please look for to three steps forward, because in our case, we understand what's going what's going to next. If they started some missile tax and electricity system, they won't stop it, they will grow it. So in our case, in the case of Netpeak, we understood, we are going to have these blackouts. And we need to support our employees with all the need not to stop working. Because if we stopped working, we will disappoint and we will not just disappoint, we won't bring this well you and we won't show that we're our best. The best results for our clients that in this case, we need to prepare everything before the blackout will start. So we bought generators, we've bought Starlinks. We've bought some electricity system for personal employees. We started communicating with our partners from Ukraine, like web development agencies, app development, just all all that we know some, even some our Ukrainian clients. Okay, guys, we've got office in Odessa. And this office is 100% independent, we've got water, we've got generators for electricity, we've got Starlinks, and they're in this office in four stages building, we can get as much guys as possible. So if you've got someone who removed from Kiev to Kharkov from other regions, to Odessa, you are welcome to join our office. And we asked for the same thing from our partners from Lviv, from Uzhgorod, from Khmelnytsky, who has some bases in there. And in this case, we predicted such a blackout, but we were ready. And also a small advice. Don't wait, while your partner or your client from abroad will ask you. Is there any problems? How are you? What's going on in Ukraine? Do you have some blackouts in our case? It was like my advice and it's really worked for lots of IT companies in Ukraine who, who are dealing with the US and the UK market, inform your clients and inform your partners about what you are doing. So we informed all the agencies and all the clients who are working with those guys, we've built all this system, we are 100% independent, nothing can stop us from working. And don't hesitate to do all sorts of contracts. 


Vladyslav Braganets  23:30

So our clients and our partners were 100% sure that we would keep on working. And they were thinking about their contracts, and they were safe. And this helps us when we are informing our partners about what we are doing. It helped us to enlarge the number of projects we are working with. In the case of other IT companies and other agencies in Ukraine. They were waiting for these questions from their parents, Are you okay, what's going on? Do you have enough electricity? How you guys are dealing with the blackouts. And they were answering these questions but there was some hesitation from the clients. And some of the clients started saying okay, guys, we would like to have a team that will be in the United European Union, not Ukrainian Ukraine based. When we are informing our partners, they do not ask us for such an option. They assure that everything is going on. So it's like advice. If you've got some problems inside the country inside your business. Don't keep this information close to your partners and clients. Share with them. What are you doing? Don't they not make them get all the things from the news? Because the news is not written not given the information about your company. They're given the overall situation and you can get all the fair information about what you are doing.


Robert Craven  25:04

And I'm just wondering how much of your approach is to do with the culture at Netpeak that other agencies may have behaved differently? Or, or whether what you're telling us is, what are you telling us in a Netpeak story, or a Ukrainian story, or maybe it's both,


Vladyslav Braganets  25:56

I can tell you that it's mostly a Netpeak story. But in Ukraine, there are lots of companies that are successful, and that made their business and they found and built this internal culture inside their companies. Netpeak is famous for our culture, because helping each other grow in our business together, given all the information inside net biggest open to the employees, they know about all the drive, and you number of employees, what's going on in different departments, and so on. When you've got all this information, it's easier to communicate inside small teams to get some decisions and to give this information to your partners and clients. In this case, it's like the story of Netpeak, but our main focus is to share knowledge. You know, it's not just to keep everything inside Netpeak. During the 16 years, I know lots of our employees who are right now on the C level of other companies like being chief marketing officers having their own business, and they have taken this part of Netpeak. And they bring this culture to their companies, to the companies where they are broken? So this culture is expanding. And of course, we are not like ETL companies, we are getting some best practices from the others, from our Western partners, from other companies in Ukraine, and all the time we are trying to improve ourselves. So I can say that we share this knowledge about, Okay, guys, please share all the information with other companies with other partners, what's going on inside your company. And some of our friends, some of our friendship companies, took this advice and implemented them in this business. Some are, some of them are not. So we're not. I'm not like a person who says like 100% the thing that you ought to implement, but I am saying I'm telling you the story, which had a good result inside Netpeak got into our experience, so someone can use it for their needs, someone can just make some additional things and to improve this experience. And in Ukrainian IT sector, it's still developing, I can say that Ukrainian IT sector in the previous year, I'm not telling just about the market, I'm telling about the whole internet technology sector, it has even grown in the year of war, if I'm not mistaken, also from 15 to 20%. The only economical sector that crawled during the year and they brought lots of investments in Ukraine, paying lots of taxes, and the IT sector is one of the biggest national sectors, which donates to the Ukrainian economy, Ukrainian military troops. And this year we are trying to improve these results so as not to stop and even give some additional growth to the previous year.


Robert Craven  29:29

This is all just just fascinating. Another thing which which I think people here wonder about so we had COVID and then everyone said, Oh, there's been culturally we've been damaged by COVID people aren't behaving the same people's mindset is damaged they need counselling coaching. What is the I mean, clearly, we don't know long term what the damage to people's mindset is, but but culturally, people must have been affected by by being in a war since last February. And I'm just trying to get my head around how you how you manage on the one hand, because I've met a number of Ukrainians, and it has been for them, almost like therapy, sort of escaping, getting to Poland and so on and so forth. And that's still not gonna mention names of people. But they've been really shocked traumatised, it's like a cultural trauma. So how do you how do you deal with that, trauma? A lot of which I guess you can't see that's going on within within the Netpeak family.


Vladyslav Braganets  31:13

So everyone is affected by this war. And there are no guys in that peak who were not affected by that. Our main aim in the first month when the war started, we said that Okay, guys, if you are not able to work right now, if you are, if you are shocked, you are in some unsafe places like Kharkiv. In Kharkiv, my native city, we had more than 100 employees. And of course when the war started it was unsafe to work because you've got missile attacks, you got bombs being the military troops just in front of the city all the time, you will see the artillery you hear these war things, lots of guys, houses, flats, apartments were damaged. And we said Okay, if you can't please be safe. The second thing after several days, we understood that it's unsafe to stay in Kharkiv and all the C level of the Netpeak group companies started communicating about how we can get out the guys from there who do not have their own vehicles. So arrange some transport because there wasn't any transport that day, some only trains but they were overcrowded, you can't get in there. And it was unsafe to be on the railway station in such crowded places. 


Vladyslav Braganets  32:48

So we're starting to communicate with others. Like coach drivers to start private companies who can go to Kharkiv and get the guys out of there, the second thing is not giving them an opportunity and giving them the feeling that they can be in a safe situation in some safe place. The third thing when the war when the guys were in a safe place is give them an opportunity to work because you when you are working when you're communicating with your team when you're communicating with some clients were you were you involved in some business processes, it helps you not to just least these news all the news, all the articles all the telegram channels and so on and so on and not to be involved in all this drama, all this war things. So it was the third step the fourth step is was to arrange weekly meetings with the founder who communicates with different bigger businessman who communicates with the government and he was sharing the information he could share about what's going on how do other businesses work and what's going on inside the company within different business units and so it's also helped guys to see each other so you can imagine that was three four or 500 of employees during one call and they receive seen each other they were chatting this whole chat Are you safe, where are you so they're communicating and it gave them and like an opportunity after COVID, everything is okay everything is going on. So it helped. 


Vladyslav Braganets  34:33

Then we started some smaller groups guys, you can discuss some things that was your normal life like someone likes football, someone likes reading books, English classes, and so on like gaming, etc. Then the guys started communicating about some entertainment topics in something that they loved before the war, and they found a club for their interests. And right now we even got several therapists inside. We hired several therapists in the Netpeak group. And they help guys to talk about their work, their family, and about the current situation. Each person in Netpeak in a whole Netpeak group can go to this book, schedule a meeting, and go to this therapist one or two times at least for free. And then we go to decide, do they need additional practices or not. So these help guys feel that they are safe, and they are well used by their own company, or that we are thinking about them, we are trying to give them all the opportunities. So in this case, of course, it won't help one in 100% not being affected by this will not be shocked by this rule. And of course, there's a great problem because you are not just tired with this war, but you're tired emotionally. In this case, you have an unpredictable situation. I really am myself, I don't know what's going on in my native city. It's nearly safe, right? Right now there. But each day I communicate with my friends, I communicate with my business partners and some guys who went to Kharkiv until I leave. And they say, in 90%, it's safe. But these 10% you can't predict where the missile is going to fall. So in this case, all these unpredictable, unpredictable things, make you tired emotionally. And we are trying to help them to find some way how they can improve their sales gifts, given some additional courses. And we are starting, given additional holidays are making guys to get the holidays having some vacation during this period of time, because lots of guys saying Okay, it's a state of war, whatever I'm going to do, I'm not going to, I can't go go abroad, for example, for hence on vacation in this case, there are lots of pretty places inside Ukraine which are good, which are safe, where you can relax, please take these vacation for 3, 5, 7 days have a rest. It was a problem last year because no one was taking vacation. We are in a state of war, we need to do our best, we need to work, we need to donate, we need to help military services, etc. This year, we're saying, Guys, it's spring, it's summer coming in several days, please take a vacation. So it helps all the employees feel that they are needed. And they are appreciated by their own company. So it's also the device. As I said, first of all, think about the biggest value of God, think about your people.


Robert Craven  38:19

Back to that, and what's your approach to leadership? Because as a leader, we're meant to know the answers as a leader is meant to create a sense that people should wish to follow us because we know what's going on. People look to us that we're meant to have the answers. People look to us because their jobs depend on us. So how do you see how you see leadership in these difficult times?


Vladyslav Braganets  39:00

I think it's a really good question. And there is no 100% right answer but at Netpeak we're trying to give an opportunity for the guys to be leaders by themselves, they can control everything, we give them the formula of analysing their job, so it's not just, Okay, let them do that. No, we are always trying to teach them to understand what they are doing? Why are they doing this and what result we explore both as a leader and the person who is doing this job we are going to receive and in this case, when you understand what you need to do and what result you need. You can control everything on your level like a middle manager, Junior manager like an ordinary employee. You understand what I can do better. And in this case of the leader, and all the guys, like we've got practice that general managers are communicating with a manager, middle managers within one week or fortnight. All the time, the middle managers communicate with team leads, team leads communicate through the heads of department heads department, communicating with the C levels, and all of them have their own analytical documents or their own reports. In this case, even communicating between the head of the department and the C level like the CEO. You can look through all this analytical information, all these reports and be involved in the processes of the junior manager on the lowest level, for example, and it helps you to understand all the process, you can go into and communicate with this person and say, Okay, I see that you're doing a great job, but results are not so great. But I think that if you are going to change 1, 2, 3 things, your results will be better. And it really helps other guys because they can see that your leader can be involved in your processes, and can help give you results. And also in the case of leadership that in that big, mostly, I think 80% of our leaders like team leads, head of the department, C level, they grown within this company, they started on the lowest level, because I've joined Netpeak, nearly seven years ago just as a sales manager. And right now I am a CEO of one of the business units inside Netpeak group. So I know all the stages of our company. And I know how it works. I, myself, wrote lots of manuals for other people so that in this case, I can go to any specialist and give him some advice. I know these guys and they can come to me because they regrown with me, they were working with me on different levels. So it helps you to understand that everything is possible. So you can go this career ladder from the very beginning to the highest position. And you have got clear information, you've got clear in manuals, and you've got a clear view of how you can reach these. And in this case, everyone understands that I am a leader in my role right now. And if I receive these key KPI, I will be on the next stage on the next stage and so on. So I think that less bureaucracy and more freedom, but with the clear KPI makes the work several times more efficient. So as I said, in the case of agencies, it's like advice or experience of Netpeak. Give your employees all the clear information about their career, about their job, and about what are you willing them to do? Do we use this all the time? What is the definition of done for this task? And the person writes the report and the Task Manager system, according to the definition of Done methodology.


Robert Craven  43:36

I love that definition of Done. I really love that it's so simple but so obvious. First question is a simple one, which is just what is it that you hear yourself saying to people all the time, what is the message you hear yourself saying to people in Netpeak and outside Netpeak all the time? And I'll forewarn you the second question. The second question is for those people outside Ukraine, what can we do to assist what can we do to help Netpeak? What can we do to help Ukraine because we're all here wanting to know how we can help? So the first question, easy question, or easy question is what is it you hear yourself saying all the time to people what were the kind of the, the golden nugget that you hear yourself flowing so often?


Vladyslav Braganets  44:41

Okay, I think that during these communications several times, I like to make them stress on one point. Keep all your guys on board, and think about your team. It's the most valuable resource any business has. That is why you think about your team, be open to your team, share the information with your team and listen to your team, it will bring you extra value extra growth. And the second thing about the second question, I think that the best thing is the people who are in Europe - be open, but not just like, as I said, Oh, Ukrainians, we need to help them. Be open in the case to find you opportunities. And it's not just about Ukraine, it's about all the developing countries, because you can find a real silver bullet, golden nugget, whatever you can call it, it's a great opportunity to grow your business with the help of the other companies. Because outsourcing and delegating some processes can enlarge your business and not just stop in routine. So in this case, be open to communicating with the Ukrainians because I am 100% Sure, that the experience and expertise of Ukrainian people, not just in the marketing IT sector in any sector of the economy, is really great. Ukraine is a marvellous country with a great level of digitalization delivering great products all over the world, in production in the agricultural sector, in economy, in lots of things in science, you can get extra knowledge. And it's a great time right now to get the knowledge from Ukrainians and share your own experience because I am 100% sure that we are going to win in this war and Ukraine will become the one of the best places to invest. And getting the opportunity right now to know this country better to have some business communication will give you several steps several steps ahead in front of your possible competitors in this market. So be open just jot this one. And of course, if you've got an opportunity, please support Ukraine with the nation's Ukrainian army. And, but the main focus is to be open because Ukrainians can bring really great value to your business, not just Ukraine or any developing country, but right now I'm talking about Ukraine and Ukrainian schools. I know them and I love them. And I'm stealing here.


Robert Craven  47:58

Thank you so much for being open and honest and sharing stuff. It's been a remarkable, humbling pleasure to talk with you but can't just say from everyone here. Thank you. Thank you so much for what you're doing and for your attitude and your for your words of wisdom. Thank you very much for being our guest.